'Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note'

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Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - G Barry Sugden, 07 Apr 11:39AM
     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 07 Apr 06:47PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Mats, 07 Apr 08:36PM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 07 Apr 08:50PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Saul Davis, 17 Apr 03:29AM
                     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 17 Apr 08:15AM
                         Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrien, 09 Jul 03:26AM
                             Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrien, 09 Jul 03:30AM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Mark Isaacs, 10 Jul 07:28AM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrian Drover, 10 Jul 08:40AM

Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by G Barry Sugden - 07 Apr 11:39AM

Does anyone know an easy way to put grace notes after a note?

This is breifly mentioned on Pg. 122 of the Reference Book but it hardly seems a ready practical way of doing what I would like to do.

See attached example I have done of the Toreador song from Carmen, my example shows the grace notes in the first full bar, before the first note,as easily executed on Sibelius.

However, all the printed editions of the vocal score show the grace notes after the first note in the pick up bar, and this is how I have always 'felt' the start of this piece to appear as it sounds i.e. the grace notes played in between the two notes, both of which are firmly and visibly on the beat.

Is there an easy way to do this in Sibelius.

--
Sibelius 6 and Photoscore Professional 4.1, Windows 7 Ultimate,32 bit PC and also 64 bit Dell Studio Laptop, Moderately competent user about 8 years for SATB Choral and Orchestral arrangements.
Attachment Carmen Extract.sib (30K)
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Benjamin - 07 Apr 06:47PM
If you scroll down to page 128, you'll find precise instructions on this. In short, you've to enter the grace notes after the barline (as you did in the example) and then move them to the left changing the x parameter in the Properties window.

(This is the only and thus the easiest way possible to achieve this, as grace notes are always attached to the following note.)

--
Sibelius 6.1.0
Windows 7 Pro - Intel Core Duo (1.4 Ghz) - 4GB Memory
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Mats - 07 Apr 08:36PM
'after-beat' is currently not supported well in Sib.
Benjamin's trick work, but simulate a system or page break after the 'beats' and you will be supriced.
If you don't use cue notes I guess you can set the size of cue notes to grace-note size and introduce a second voice and fool sib.
I encl. one solution. It will not playback in the same speed - you have to adjust the MM at places.
The encl. supports system/page breaks but is noted in 2/4 up-beat while yours is 1/4.
Attachment Carmen_Extract_2.sib (30K)
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Benjamin - 07 Apr 08:50PM
My reply was a little incomplete in that respect that you can, of course, also create the grace notes _before_ a note in the bar before they are leading to (i.e. before the upbeat in the carmen example) and then move them to the right. This is the solution when there is a page/system break between the grace notes and the next bar. This works also with bar rests, i.e. you can notate an "upbeat" consisting of grace notes in an otherwise "empty" bar.

It is indeed possible to fake grace notes (within certain limits) by inputting them in another voice with small noteheads (type 10 by default) and, if you like, make them even smaller using the enter button on the second keypad. Playback is another issue, as Mats has mentioned.

--
Sibelius 6.1.0
Windows 7 Pro - Intel Core Duo (1.4 Ghz) - 4GB Memory
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Saul Davis - 17 Apr 03:29AM
I need this feature also, you should be able to place a grace note anywhere.

--
S. Z.
Sibelius 5.1, Windows XP, basic set up.
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Benjamin - 17 Apr 08:15AM
> I need this feature also, you should be able to place a grace note anywhere.
>

In a perfect world, you'd be able to do that.

I don't know much about programming, but you've to take into consideration that grace notes are a bit complicated both under positioning and under playback aspects from the point of view of a computer/software.

For a musician, it's an easy thing to see a grace note and think "ok, I've got to play this as fast as possible and reduce the duration of the preceding or following note a little". But for a computer programme, this kind of "fuzzy" thinking is quite a challenge, because the grace note does not "count" and yet has to be assigned a position and some more informations for correct playback.


--
Sibelius 6.1.0
Windows 7 Pro - Intel Core Duo (1.4 Ghz) - 4GB Memory
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Adrien - 09 Jul 03:26AM
I need this too. Still can't do it in Sib 8.6.

As for whether it's hard or not, well they managed it with MuseScore (you can select whether a grace note is before or after a note)... if Avid programmers think it's too hard, maybe they should get a job mowing lawns. I'm a programmer for over 20yrs, they need to change attitude and start doing what their users ask them for.
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Adrien - 09 Jul 03:30AM
it's not just this issue. I've spent all day googling for how to do simple things, and finding 1/2 the things require some horrible hack (like if you want multiple movts in your score). I'm developing a pretty poor impression of Avid / Sibelius attitude towards users, many things people have been asking for for many years, and sorry, but compared to many things that humans do, they aren't hard to do at all.
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 10 Jul 07:28AM (edited 10 Jul 07:28AM)
Sibelius is an excellent program, Adrien, not withstanding a few (*very* few) idiosyncrasies.

I, like many, have always been well supported by the Reference Manual, by the Avid technical support team, and by this marvellous forum.

Yes, Sibelius has a Reference Manual, as I'm sure you know. A damn good one.

Please:

Read the Fabulous Manual (RTFM). And learn.

And this is an excellent forum for support, guidance and questions answered. Search the forum if you need to (Dr Google is not necessary).

It is completely untrue that it "require[s] some horrible hack...if you want multiple movts in your score". Or that "1/2 the [simple] things" require a "horrible hack"

Read the Fabulous Manual.

A constructive use of this forum is for users to get help where needed, not to vent by running exaggerated and false invective. You're free to do it of course, and I'm free to call it out.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 32-bit Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
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Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note
Posted by Adrian Drover - 10 Jul 08:40AM (edited 10 Jul 08:41AM)
Does this work?
8th rest and 16th sextuplets in voice 1.
Hide the rest and tuplet number. Make cue size.
Quarter note in voice 2. Live duration 128.
Sib.6 file attached.
Attachment fake grace.sib (96K)
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - G Barry Sugden, 07 Apr 11:39AM
     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 07 Apr 06:47PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Mats, 07 Apr 08:36PM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 07 Apr 08:50PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Saul Davis, 17 Apr 03:29AM
                     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Benjamin, 17 Apr 08:15AM
                         Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrien, 09 Jul 03:26AM
                             Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrien, 09 Jul 03:30AM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Mark Isaacs, 10 Jul 07:28AM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.1: Grace notes after a note - Adrian Drover, 10 Jul 08:40AM