Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 07 Jan 02:48PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Daniel Spreadbury, 07 Jan 05:02PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 07 Jan 05:36PM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 08 Jan 01:43AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 02:25AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 08 Jan 05:22PM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 09:55PM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Rob Tuley, 08 Jan 11:36PM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 09 Jan 01:11AM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 02:55AM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 01:38AM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 01:42AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 09 Jan 02:17AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 02:57AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 03:45AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 02:46AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 03:03AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 03:42AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Daniel Spreadbury, 09 Jan 11:33AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 12:54PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 01:50PM

Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by infoseeker - 07 Jan 02:48PM
In the very near future I plan to upgrade my desktop system. At the present time what I have on my desktop is shown at the bottom of the page. What's not mentioned there is that I have Altec-Lansing VS4121 speakers and a sound card to drive them.

I will probably stick with the Dell desktop since they are just down the road from me and service is superb. I'll have the latest Windows operating system on the desktop.

Here is my question: When I put in the order for a new system, what is the suggestion you would have for the amount of memory I should request, the kind of sound card, and possibly new speakers if the Altec-Lansing VS4121 don't strike you as the best. I would like to get a system that can handle upgrades to the Sibelius system for several years to come. After I get the new system, I plan to upgrade to the latest Sibelius version.

Thanks for your suggestions very much.

--
Sibelius 5.2 and all pertinent updates. Windows XP Pro, SP 3, Pentium 4, CPU 2.53 GHz, memory 1 GB, available memory 608 MB, virtual memory 1.9 GB, available virtual memory 1.5 GB

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 07 Jan 05:02PM
You should get at least 4GB RAM. Dell won't be able to supply you with a suitable soundcard, so don't worry about buying that from them. Buy it later, either buying an external USB- or Firewire-based audio interface, or an internal PCI-based one. You'll find lots of recommendations from different folks.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
USA & Canada: [email protected] / 1-888-280-9995
UK: [email protected] / +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: [email protected] / 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 07 Jan 05:36PM
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:48:48, "infoseeker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In the very near future I plan to upgrade my desktop system. At the present time
>what I have on my desktop is shown at the bottom of the page. What's not mentioned
>there is that I have Altec-Lansing VS4121 speakers and a sound card to drive them.
>
>
>I will probably stick with the Dell desktop since they are just down the road
>from me and service is superb. I'll have the latest Windows operating system on
>the desktop.
>
>Here is my question: When I put in the order for a new system, what is the suggestion
>you would have for the amount of memory I should request, the kind of sound card,
>and possibly new speakers if the Altec-Lansing VS4121 don't strike you as the
>best. I would like to get a system that can handle upgrades to the Sibelius system
>for several years to come. After I get the new system, I plan to upgrade to the
>latest Sibelius version.

Don't forget to uninstall Sibelius from your old system before dumping
it. Then you'll retain both your allowed registrations.

If you're getting 32-bit Windows 7 put in 4GB RAM. If you're going
for 64-bit Windows 7 I'd install twice that. But consider carefully
whether 64-bit is appropriate to your needs.

Dell don't offer any suitable sound cards. Buy one separately from
a specialist supplier. What you choose depends on what musical use
you make of your computer apart from Sibelius. Maybe more than one
input/output pair would be useful. Or perhaps an audio interface with
built-in mic and/or guitar preamps. Will the Dell have PCI or only
PCIe slots available? What about Firewire?

If you're running ONLY Sibelius, with not very demanding scores, you
might like to try using the onboard audio plus ASIO4ALL. It may be
all you need.

Your Altec-Lansing VS4121 speakers can be looked at in two ways.
They're not-bad-at-all computer speakers. For audio production work
they're off the bottom of the range. But if you just want to hear
your scores and don't do any recording outside Sibelius they're just
fine. Again, nothing in the Dell listings is any better.

A note on Dell. Their basic systems can be good value for money. But
when you start adding "options" you'll find they overcharge grossly.
Check the price of, for instance, 2GB of additional RAM at
www.crucial.com, then see what Dell charge for the same.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by infoseeker - 08 Jan 01:43AM
Many thanks for the quick replies. Let me address some of the items brought up.

RAM: I will request as much RAM as I can afford. I have had problems in the past with large orchestral pieces in tutti passages choking as well as the scores coming to a full stop in the playback. Clearly I don't have enough RAM right now. I don't think that the 62-bit Windows is what I'm after since I attended a demostration of the two choices not long ago and it was explained what the 62-bit is designed for - not me.
Sound card: It's clear that I need either to tell the Dell people to leave a sound card out or make sure that I can replace it with one of my own choice when the system gets here. From what little I know, I just want to make sure that I have a card which gives me good sound since I want to hear the pieces - normally orchestral works - as nearly like they will sound when played by the 'real thing.' I don't use the PC for any musical use outside of Sibelius. Oh, sometimes I use Mozilla Foxfire to play music in the background when I'm working on e-mail. I don't know what Dell has available when it comes to PCl or PCle slots since I haven't talked with anyone at Dell yet. And I honestly don't know what PCl and PCle mean. At present I am using ASIO4ALL and my present system works fairly well except that there is a muffled quality on virtually everything. I'm not sure how to get rid of the booming bass or how to make the strings and soprano instruments sing and 'come out from under a muffled cloud.' Adjusting the treble and bass dials on the Altec speakers doesn't seem to have much effect.
Sibelius on the new system: Thanks for the suggestion for uninstalling Sibelius on the old system when I'm ready to retire it. I have the disk for the latest version I have which I plan to use to install Sibelius on the new system and then go for the upgrades.

If you have any other suggestions, I'm willing and ready to hear them.

Thanks.

--
Sibelius 5.2 and all pertinent updates. Windows XP Pro, SP 3, Pentium 4, CPU 2.53 GHz, memory 1 GB, available memory 608 MB, virtual memory 1.9 GB, available virtual memory 1.5 GB

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 08 Jan 02:25AM
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 01:43:34, "infoseeker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Many thanks for the quick replies. Let me address some of the items brought up.
>
>
>RAM: I will request as much RAM as I can afford. I have had problems in the past
>with large orchestral pieces in tutti passages choking as well as the scores coming
>to a full stop in the playback. Clearly I don't have enough RAM right now. I don't
>think that the 62-bit Windows is what I'm after since I attended a demostration
>of the two choices not long ago and it was explained what the 62-bit is designed
>for - not me.

1GB RAM is indeed barely adequate. You're aware of course that if you
choose the 32-bit version of Windows 7 there's no point in installing
more than 4GB? But memory is cheap (especially if not bought from
Dell :-) so you shouldn't have to worry too much about how much you
can afford.

Was the demonstration of 32 and 64-bit versions in the context of
music software, in particular of playback using large sample sets?
Most of the computer world knows nothing of such things, thinks an
Audigy is a top-range audio card and has barely heard of ASIO drivers!

But unless you have purchased large sound libraries additional to
those included in Sibelius I agree, 32 bits will suffice for your
needs. So 4GB RAM is what you go for.

>Sound card: It's clear that I need either to tell the Dell people to leave a sound
>card out or make sure that I can replace it with one of my own choice when the
>system gets here. From what little I know, I just want to make sure that I have
>a card which gives me good sound since I want to hear the pieces - normally orchestral
>works - as nearly like they will sound when played by the 'real thing.' I don't
>use the PC for any musical use outside of Sibelius. Oh, sometimes I use Mozilla
>Foxfire to play music in the background when I'm working on e-mail. I don't know
>what Dell has available when it comes to PCl or PCle slots since I haven't talked
>with anyone at Dell yet. And I honestly don't know what PCl and PCle mean. At
>present I am using ASIO4ALL and my present system works fairly well except that
>there is a muffled quality on virtually everything. I'm not sure how to get rid
>of the booming bass or how to make the strings and soprano instruments sing and
>'come out from under a muffled cloud.' Adjusting the treble and bass dials on
>the Altec speakers doesn't seem to have much effect.

Dell won't offer a computer without a sound system on the motherboard.
It's built-in, not an option. When another card is installed this
on-board system would normally be disabled in BIOS.

I suggest you see how you get on with the onboard sound and ASIO4ALL.
The benefit of a dedicated sound card is mainly in performance - the
ability to play complex scores without stuttering. The increase in
actual tonal quality is more subtle, maybe hardly noticeable unless
you use considerably better speakers. But you do need to tie Dell
down on expandability. Some of their cheaper computers are very
limited in this respect.

Your Altecs consist I think of a pair of small treble units plus a
larger bass box. A common user fault with such systems is turning the
bass up so loud that you hear the large box as a separate source. When
this happens, you are running VERY bass-heavy. Adjust it so the sound
is localised in the two small speakers.

If you like to work out a specification with Dell and post it here,
maybe we can find some useful comments.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by infoseeker - 08 Jan 05:22PM
Again, thanks for the comments.

The 32-bit versus 64-bit demo was by a local fellow who is a wizard with computers. His demo was especially for people who want to do computer graphics and there were several there who build web pages. Even though it was held on a "dark and stormy night," there were more people there than I anticipated, so I didn't get to ask him many questions aimed at musical sound reproduction. He and I have talked in the past and he has offered to build me a PC with 12G RAM and a very good sound card, plus a monitor screen about 36 inches wide. ATt $2500, I told him I really wasn't interested in paying for his vacation to the Caribbean all by myself. Perhaps he could build a more modest PC with less RAM, still a good sound card and I could use my Altec speakers. Perhaps I can get the fellow to give me the specs on what he was planning to do (with some modifications to pull back on the price) and post them at this site for comments.

And you are correct about the Altec speakers system: two desktop speakers and a larger bass box which sits on the floor. According to the directions, the bass box can sit anywhere as long as it's not close to any component of the PC since it's not shielded. It is evidently "non-directional" and as long as it doesn't face the wall, the bass will sound appropriately. The two treble can sit on the desk next to the monitor.

I know what you mean about the Dell components beyond the basic unit becoming quickly expensive.

--
Sibelius 5.2 and all pertinent updates. Windows XP Pro, SP 3, Pentium 4, CPU 2.53 GHz, memory 1 GB, available memory 608 MB, virtual memory 1.9 GB, available virtual memory 1.5 GB

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 08 Jan 09:55PM
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:22:29, "infoseeker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The 32-bit versus 64-bit demo was by a local fellow who is a wizard with computers.
>His demo was especially for people who want to do computer graphics and there
>were several there who build web pages. Even though it was held on a "dark and
>stormy night," there were more people there than I anticipated, so I didn't get
>to ask him many questions aimed at musical sound reproduction. He and I have talked
>in the past and he has offered to build me a PC with 12G RAM and a very good sound
>card, plus a monitor screen about 36 inches wide. ATt $2500, I told him I really
>wasn't interested in paying for his vacation to the Caribbean all by myself. Perhaps
>he could build a more modest PC with less RAM, still a good sound card and I could
>use my Altec speakers. Perhaps I can get the fellow to give me the specs on what
>he was planning to do (with some modifications to pull back on the price) and
>post them at this site for comments.

Designing web pages makes no particular demands on computer power,
although a large screen (or dual screens) make the job easier. People
who manipulate large high-quality images in Photoshop or who edit
video can make good use of more power. For what I think you intend
to do, I think you'd just be playing in a small corner of a 12GB
machine :-)

Make sure your friend realises what you intend to do with your
computer - in particular that your only musical application is
Sibelius with the supplied sample library. Or, if I'm mistaken about
this, tell him what you DO intend to do. Then find out what he
considers a "good sound card" and report back. Hint - if it's a
top-of-the-range Soundblaster or Audigy, he doesn't understand audio
computers.

I hate to keep rubbing the point in, but anything beyond an
entry-level "pro" soundcard (which isn't at all expensive) would be
pointless unless you go way up from your Altec speakers.

>And you are correct about the Altec speakers system: two desktop speakers and
>a larger bass box which sits on the floor. According to the directions, the bass
>box can sit anywhere as long as it's not close to any component of the PC since
>it's not shielded. It is evidently "non-directional" and as long as it doesn't
>face the wall, the bass will sound appropriately. The two treble can sit on the
>desk next to the monitor.

But you complained of them sounding "Boomy". Did you achieve a more
realistic balance by turning the bass speaker down in volume until it
was barely perceptible as a separate source, as I suggested?

Presumably you have a competent hi-fi system? It's easy to hook your
computer up to this. Give it a try. What are your comments on the
differences in sound quality?

It may even be that all you really need is a further GB of RAM for
your present computer. Go to www.crucial.com and run their system
check application. It will tell you what RAM is installed and what
your upgrade options are. When you see just how cheap another GB
would be, perhaps you'll decide to try it. Installation is very easy.
Or if that really isn't your thing, a neighbourhood teenage boy will
be glad to assist I'm sure!

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Rob Tuley - 08 Jan 11:36PM
> According to the directions, the bass box can sit anywhere as long as it's not close to any component of the PC since it's not shielded. It is evidently "non-directional" and as long as it doesn't face the wall, the bass will sound appropriately.

That is probably true enough if you want to rattle the windows with the explosions on a movie soundtrack, but getting music to sound balanced is another matter.

The first problem is, you can't reproduce low bass accurately in a small room, period. Think about it - there's a reason why cathedral organs have pipes 32 feet long, and are installed in cathedral-sized buildings. If you try to make the same sound in a small rectangular room (e.g. 20 or 25 feet across and 9 feet high), you will probably just get a set of boomy resonances depending on the exact size of the room. Also, you can't reproduce low bass accurately from a small box like the average sub-woofer, because it physically can't push enough air around without creating a lot of turbulence and distortion. (That's why "real" bass speaker cabinets are still 10 feet tall and 5 feet wide like they always used to be - you can't change laws of physics by clever marketing!)

Re "muffled sounds and boomy playback", separate out two issues: your speakers, and Sibelius. First try playing professionally recorded commercial CDs. If you can't get an acceptable sound from them, there's no point trying to make Sibelius playback sound better.

You may find that moving the bass unit about has a major effect on the sound. Putting it near a wall, or even worse near a corner of the room, will probably make the "booming" worse. If it has some large ports in one sound to "let the sound out", turn the box through 90 degrees to point them in 4 different directions, some may sound less boomy than others. Try it with the box angled at 45 degrees to the wall as well.

Once you have got acceptable playback of commercial recordings, then you can start trying to find out why Sibelius playback sounds bad (if that is still the case). The thing with the most dramatic effect on the sound is usually the type and amount of reverb. Effects like reverb are a bit like salt in food - if you can tell it's there, you are probably using too much- and the usual beginner's fault is using WAY too much.

Re trying to "future proof" a PC for "several years", that is usually a waste of money up front. The fact is that new hardware technology keeps appearing on the market, new software releases will make use of it (just "because it's there", even if it doesn't really NEED to make use of it). Any PC more than 2 or 3 years old was designed before the new stuff was even invented, so you can't plan ahead to know if will be cheaper to upgrade an old PC or just to buy a new one.

Of course PC hardware will last much longer than 3 years, so you can plan to keep running it almost indefintely, provided you don't want to upgrade anything.

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Win98SE, Athlon 3100, 512Mb, Audigy

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by infoseeker - 09 Jan 01:11AM
Laurence and Rob, let me reply to your postings together.

Yeah, I was a bit stunned when the suggestion for a 12GB was forthcoming. I'm not sure where that came from except that I had told the fellow that I wanted a lot of memory. That's overkill for sure.

I guess I should clarify a bit about the "boomy" sound and the damped treble from the Altec speakers (and here is an answer to one of your questions, Rob). The sound when Sibelius opens up with that snippet from Sibelius (and the opening snippet in Sib 4) are beautiful! Full, crisp sound with velvety bass and rich horns. When I play a CD in the Disk Drive, the sound is outstanding with full, wrap-around stereophonic sound - as good as anything my stereo system produces. When I play the selections which are on the Foxfire site, they are great.

That's why it's always been a little disappointing to have such significantly lower quality sound from the pieces I enter into the Sibelius program and play them back. At first I thought that might be because I don't have a top-of-the-line instrument selection such as the Vienna Sound Libary. I have loaded in examples from the VSL and they sound terrific. I have never tried my system through my stereo since it is located in another room about 40 feet away.

I haven't touched anything in the Sibelius program dealing with reverb since I'm not sure where I would even find it. The only thing I have done is to go to the mixer from time to time to adjust some instrument(s) which are either overpowering or almost non-existent.

I have had this Dell hardware for almost 5 years and it is still working just fine for all the things I need to do except for the lack of enough RAM to keep the big passages in the works I enter into Sibelius from stuttering or choking.

I hope I have addressed your comments adequately. If not, please let me know and I'll try to elaborate.



--
Sibelius 5.2 and all pertinent updates. Windows XP Pro, SP 3, Pentium 4, CPU 2.53 GHz, memory 1 GB, available memory 608 MB, virtual memory 1.9 GB, available virtual memory 1.5 GB

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Jan 02:55AM
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:11:10, "infoseeker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Laurence and Rob, let me reply to your postings together.
>
>Yeah, I was a bit stunned when the suggestion for a 12GB was forthcoming. I'm
>not sure where that came from except that I had told the fellow that I wanted
>a lot of memory. That's overkill for sure.
>
>I guess I should clarify a bit about the "boomy" sound and the damped treble from
>the Altec speakers (and here is an answer to one of your questions, Rob). The
>sound when Sibelius opens up with that snippet from Sibelius (and the opening
>snippet in Sib 4) are beautiful! Full, crisp sound with velvety bass and rich
>horns. When I play a CD in the Disk Drive, the sound is outstanding with full,
>wrap-around stereophonic sound - as good as anything my stereo system produces.
>When I play the selections which are on the Foxfire site, they are great.
>
>That's why it's always been a little disappointing to have such significantly
>lower quality sound from the pieces I enter into the Sibelius program and play
>them back. At first I thought that might be because I don't have a top-of-the-line
>instrument selection such as the Vienna Sound Libary. I have loaded in examples
>from the VSL and they sound terrific. I have never tried my system through my
>stereo since it is located in another room about 40 feet away.
>
>I haven't touched anything in the Sibelius program dealing with reverb since I'm
>not sure where I would even find it. The only thing I have done is to go to the
>mixer from time to time to adjust some instrument(s) which are either overpowering
>or almost non-existent.
>
>I have had this Dell hardware for almost 5 years and it is still working just
>fine for all the things I need to do except for the lack of enough RAM to keep
>the big passages in the works I enter into Sibelius from stuttering or choking.

So try more RAM and see if things improve. Perhaps you have a friend
who's into computers who could lend you some from another machine?
You'll soon tell if playback benefits.

If you're going to buy Sibelius 6, you could get it now and load it
(plus the new sample player) on your present machine. It can always
be moved later. Maybe the system will be underpowered and still
stutter. But you'll get an idea of the tonal quality.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 09 Jan 01:38AM (edited 09 Jan 01:41AM)
I’ll add in another approach, and it’s one that will give you everything you want with fewer or, no compromises, and a maximum level of ‘upgradability’ (to use a slightly loaded term).

Consider building your own computer, to your own configuration preferences.

If you really want upgrade options in the future I think this is the best way to go. You’ll be working with industry standards, and not the ‘Proprietary’ Standards which are set and so common with the name brand manufacturers.

But don’t go into this thinking you’ll be saving a lot of money, that wouldn’t be the case!!

What you’ll be getting is exactly what you want - without having to compromise your component’s to the set of Dell’s Limited Options.

You’ll also be able to offset some of the cost involved to a ‘small extent’ (and that will be clear later if it’s not already now).

Your biggest benefit from a computer upgrade (as A Sibelius User) will come from having a good… CPU, Sufficient Memory, and a Soundcard installed on a Quality Motherboard.

These are the Key Components of almost any Computer System, and collectively they make up The major part of an upgrade - The better they are, the better your computer will be. And I’d also consider a High Quality Power Supply to be among these items (Clean, Regulated, and Consistent Power is very important in electronics. It shouldn’t be overlooked (but it almost always is). And it doesn’t come preinstalled on any of the big name manufactured computer systems for sale today.

My idea or methodology is basically this. . . The more money you can ‘Focus’ upon the ‘Quality’ of the Key Components-- the better the System you’ll actually be buying, owning, and using.

An upgrade in your optical (CD, DVD) drives will not be noticed in the day to day operation of Sibelius, as such it’s an upgrade you can postpone for a later date (you can use your old drives in your new set-up for now – and upgrade later).

Likewise, depending upon your needs the video card is also something you could upgrade later on. So you could start off by getting a modest version of that, or. . . it’s very likely that you won’t even need to buy one. Because the motherboard you choose might already have one on it. You can just use that, until your needs require a better solution.

As far as the Hard Drive goes you could use the one(s) from your old computer again. But be forewarned here. Installing Software takes a little time, and swapping out Hard Drives is a little different from the quick change around of optical drives, or adding in more memory. So if you postpone this for a later date then you might be spending a little time in making this change, so keep that in mind.

Speakers are easily added, and you always get what you pay for. In and of themselves they really stand apart from a computer upgrade, and should be treated that way.

If you need to free up a little money to focus on a better CPU for example, you can always work your way up concerning memory. You don’t have to start off with 8GB. Follow Daniels recommendation of 4GB and then go up from there. You might not need 8GB for another year or so. It’s very easy to add this in at a later date.

Well, as is typical with me I’ve written another long reply, and I was even trying to give a quick outline of the ‘Build your own Computer Option’. I’ve left out a few VERY Important issues above, but I’ll mention them by name, because if you do go this route you’ll need to know what they are if you want things to turn out right. They are. . . ‘Device Drivers’, ‘Form Factors’, and ‘Quality Components’.

‘Device Drivers’ – are sets of software that basically allow a piece of hardware to communicate with the OS. And in the examples I gave above, the following applies. . . If you can’t find a ‘device driver’ for a piece of hardware you have from your old system that will work with your new OS (i.e. Windows 7), then you won’t be able to use that item in the new system. This isn’t too likely to happen with the examples I used but it could. Microsoft has always been good about backward compatibility, But it’s best to check first.

** When you see things like a Soundcard that will have a ‘Windows 7 Ready’ sticker on the box. What they’re really saying is we have written ‘drivers’ for this device that work with Windows 7.

Another thing to look out for would be an incompatible ‘Form Factor’ between a hardware device and the motherboard sockets it connects to. . .

‘Form Factors’ - Control the standard by which the various components connect together (on the motherboard), it’s not complicated really. You just have to be aware that these things exist before you start buying your parts. Do a little research on the topic. It will have some affect upon what your choices are once you start to decide upon options.

** Most Sockets have keyed connections so it’s actually pretty difficult to mess things up here because when you have a memory module that’s not designed for a particular motherboard, it just won’t fit. And that’s the likely scenario using a very ‘reckless approach of buying memory’ without first checking to see what works with your motherboard in the first place.

‘Quality Components’ - these are basically the right parts for your computer; it’s hard to go wrong when you buy quality products. Don’t skimp on the important stuff.

Building your own System is not hard, and it shouldn’t be something that you shy away from because you're not familiar with the process. It’s an easy process to learn now actually.

In the past things were a little harder, but the same can’t be said for today. Unless you try to go really cheap where poor quality hardware, and badly written device drivers can cause a few problems.

Rob's comments on 'future proofing' are very good. The future is a shooting target, and nobody knows what path hardware development is going to take us along. That's true. Also remember, the software you're using now is not designed to take advantage of the great innovations of the future hardware. It only designed to work with today's current technology. And It's unlikely you'll even want to run 'Sibelius 6' on a computer design based 6-10 years into our future.

One Big benefit from building your own system, is that you can offset some of the costs over incremental upgrades, as you come to need them. You are also going to learn some very worthwhile information in the process. Information that in the long run can and likely will save you money, because You'll be able to troubleshot your own problems.
---

I'll stop here, oh yes I can keep going, but it's best to know that your writing to someone who's interested in the idea. I hope you consider this approach as something very possible because it is. But that doesn't mean that it's right for you.

Take Care, Jim


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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 09 Jan 01:42AM
Is there any point with regards to Sibelius performance (or general performance as it may affect Sibelius) in going from 3Gb RAM to 4Gb on a 32-bit system under Windows 7?
--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by infoseeker - 09 Jan 02:17AM
Jim, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm a user and asking me to build a computer would be like asking me to build a car. I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin. And honestly, I'm not sure I understand everything you have said. You say it's simpler than one would believe. I'm not sure I have that many more years to live...

Mark, when I get a new system I would expect it would have Windows 7 (32-bit) on it and I will make sure that the builder puts in 4 GB of RAM or a bit more if the system will accommodate it.

--
Sibelius 5.2 and all pertinent updates. Windows XP Pro, SP 3, Pentium 4, CPU 2.53 GHz, memory 1 GB, available memory 608 MB, virtual memory 1.9 GB, available virtual memory 1.5 GB

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Jan 02:57AM
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 02:17:39, "infoseeker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Mark, when I get a new system I would expect it would have Windows 7 (32-bit)
>on it and I will make sure that the builder puts in 4 GB of RAM or a bit more
>if the system will accommodate it.

I don't think you've quite understood that 4GB is the maximum a 32-bit
system will recognize. That "little bit more" would be completely
unused and a waste of money.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 09 Jan 03:45AM (edited 09 Jan 07:26AM)
> Jim, please don't take this the wrong way.

---
Don't worry about this. I'm not so attached to the suggestion, that I'll feel bad if you don't follow. How would I know if you did anyhow?


>
I'm a user and asking me to build a computer would be like asking me to build a car. I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin. And honestly, I'm not sure I understand everything you have said. You say it's simpler than one would believe. I'm not sure I have that many more years to live...


---
I understand what your saying, and I still have the same advice. You think it's hard because you've never really seen it done before.

Forget the 'car', a better metaphor here would be a bicycle (there are much fewer parts).

If you look around YouTube for a tutorial you can see how it's done.

If you look around NewEgg.com you'll see computer parts. (you'll learn which are good by reading the various users reviews).

** Even if you don't build your own system, and there are some good reasons NOT to. You're still going to gain worthwhile info that will pay off in knowing what kind system you want to BUY. So the research isn't really a loss.

Well, it's still something to consider, it's not hard to do, and circumstances will dictate a time when you might decide to try it. I think you're close to that because you're going to do some modifications with the Sound Card (perhaps), and possible add in memory (at a later date), if nothing else. And if you can do these things on your own. Then you're also capable of doing the rest as well.

I'm only trying to encourage you here, and I hope it doesn't come off like a lecture or badgering. That's not my intention and I'm sorry if it seems that way.

But there is a benefit in getting a system that is tuned to your needs, and not just configured to a 'collective mass audience' who are looking to do some general computing.


Take Care,

Jim


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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 09 Jan 02:46AM (edited 09 Jan 04:22AM)
> Is there any point with regards to Sibelius performance (or general performance as it may affect Sibelius) in going from 3Gb RAM to 4Gb on a 32-bit system under Windows 7?
---

Hi Mark,

Hopefully Daniel see's your comment, and responds to it.
(I'd like to see what he has to say on this topic).


As far as my lesser informed opinion goes I suppose it comes down to how big your scores are, and what your sound libraries are like.

In a way is seems like a small jump, but then again that would be a 25% increase, and that is something.

I'm using 3GB myself, and I suspect I have smaller scores than what your doing. (But I'm also using 3GB, because that's the limit of what XP can handle).

Daniel made a comment regarding this range of memory (3-4 GB) a while back. I'll try to find it, and add the link in to this post. But for now, from what I remember I got the impression that a person needing the top limits of that would have "Quite Large Scores Indeed". or "Very Large Scores" [that's my paraphrasing of course]. I'll try to recall where I saw his comment. I just remember an overall impression that so long as a person is using the Sibelius 'Sound Libraries' 3-4 GB is quite adequate.

Just out of curiosity, have you every looked to see how much memory you're accessing during the playback of your typical Sibelius Score?

That might be an indicator for you as to how much sense it makes for your use.
---

Well Mark,

I'm not going to let you go away without reading a worthwhile response from me. So to whatever shortcomings the previous comments add up to please add in the following...

A little while back I took a look at your Site, and saw what you've been up to. My overall impression was that you have a lot to be proud of.


Take Care,

Jim







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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Jan 03:03AM
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 01:42:45, "Mark Isaacs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Is there any point with regards to Sibelius performance (or general performance
>as it may affect Sibelius) in going from 3Gb RAM to 4Gb on a 32-bit system under
>Windows 7?

If the motherboard supports a dual-channel RAM configuration, matched
pairs of memory modules are required. I suppose 3 GB MIGHT be 4
slots, a pair of 1GB and a pair of 512MB......

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 09 Jan 03:42AM (edited 09 Jan 03:55AM)
Jim thanks for your comments about RAM and your very nice words about your observation of my musical activities.

Infoseeker, regarding your (as far as I know) quite correct comment about no benefit above 4Gb under 32-bit, and Jim your comments about extra RAM, it's just that I've heard that 3Gb is the maximum you can use under 32-bit. I wonder though if Windows 7 enables one to make use of the 3Gb-4Gb range under 32-bit better than Vista. In which case my next move would be to go to Windows 7 and add a 1Gb. Unless I go to 64-bit, which means I definitely can use 4Gb for Sibelius since it went Large Address Aware in 6.1 and much more again if Sibelius goes 64-bit.

Of course all this idea of using extra RAM gives one a warm, fuzzy feeling but I can honestly say that things couldn't run any faster or smoother for me on my current rig, though I am yet to do playback of a large orchestral score but suspect I wouldn't have the slightest problems with a quad core processor and 3Gb RAM.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 09 Jan 11:33AM
On a 32-bit Windows system there is no benefit in going from 3GB to 4GB. If you upgrade to Windows 7 64-bit, Sibelius can access that additional 1GB RAM, though whether or not you would actually *need* that extra headroom is another matter altogether.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 09 Jan 12:54PM
Thanks Daniel. With your advice to get at least 4Gb RAM at the start of the thread, I had wondered if I was deficient. But at this stage of the game I suspect you're indicating that one may as well get 4Gb RAM on a brand new system because it has become cheap enough and then even if one starts at 32-bit one has the extra RAM if taking a later decision to go to 64-bit?

Laurence I believe my 3GB is indeed configured as 2 x 1Gb and 2 x 512Mb across 4 slots.
--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Jan 01:50PM
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:54:09, "Mark Isaacs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thanks Daniel. With your advice to get at least 4Gb RAM at the start of the thread,
>I had wondered if I was deficient. But at this stage of the game I suspect you're
>indicating that one may as well get 4Gb RAM on a brand new system because it has
>become cheap enough and then even if one starts at 32-bit one has the extra RAM
>if taking a later decision to go to 64-bit?
>
>Laurence I believe my 3GB is indeed configured as 2 x 1Gb and 2 x 512Mb across
>4 slots.

OK. So you get the benefit of dual-channel memory access if your
motherboard supports it. I'd leave it alone.

If you go for 64-bit later on I imagine you'll be adding a significant
quantity of further memory, which will necessitate dumping your
present RAM modules for bigger ones.

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 07 Jan 02:48PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Daniel Spreadbury, 07 Jan 05:02PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 07 Jan 05:36PM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 08 Jan 01:43AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 02:25AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 08 Jan 05:22PM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 09:55PM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Rob Tuley, 08 Jan 11:36PM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 09 Jan 01:11AM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 02:55AM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 01:38AM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 01:42AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - infoseeker, 09 Jan 02:17AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 02:57AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 03:45AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Jim Druckenmiller, 09 Jan 02:46AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 03:03AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 03:42AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Daniel Spreadbury, 09 Jan 11:33AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Mark Isaacs, 09 Jan 12:54PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: upgrade - Laurence Payne, 09 Jan 01:50PM